Among runners, Scott Jurek is a living legend. He has claimed victory in nearly all of ultrarunning’s elite trail and road events. He won the Western States 100-mile Endurance Run a record seven straight times. In 2015, he set the Appalachian Trail speed record, averaging nearly 50 miles a day over 46 days. Scott follows a 100% plant-based diet, which he credits for his endurance, recovery after runs, and consistent twenty year racing career.
Ivy Joeva interviews Scott Jurek, an elite ultramarathoner who eats for the win with a plant-based diet. Scott has won nearly all of ultrarunning's top trail and road events. He won the Western States 100-mile Endurance Run a record seven straight times. In 2015, he set the Appalachian Trail speed record, averaging nearly 50 miles a day over 46 days.
He credits being a vegan with giving him these seemingly super-human powers of strength and endurance.
Scott is the author of two books, Eat and Run and North.
Ivy Joeva:
I'm Ivy Joeva and this is future of food. Among runners. Scott Jurek is a living legend. He's claimed victory in nearly all of ultra running's elite trail and road events. He won the Western States a hundred mile endurance run, a record of seven straight times. In 2015, he set the Appalachian trail speed record averaging nearly 50 miles a day. Over 46 days, Scott follows a hundred percent plant based diet, which he credits for his endurance recovery after runs and consistent 20 year racing career. I hope you're as inspired as I was by this conversation with running legend, Scott Jurek. Well, Scott, it's so wonderful to have you on future food today. You are truly a living legends. I just reading about these races. You do. I can't even wrap my mind around the mental stamina, the physical stamina, just the it's super, super human level stuff.
Scott Jurek:
I don't know if I'm quite super human, but I guess, uh, if it sounds like that I know for some people, it definitely seems like ultra marathoning is, uh, a bit superhuman, but, um, I'm just a normal guy. Like everyone else, as most people will, we'll find out here in a bit.
Ivy Joeva:
So curious that what drives you? I mean, 50 miles a day for 46 days on the Appalachian trail, you share about this in your book North for listeners. Can you just help us understand, like what possesses you to undertake that kind of a thing?
Scott Jurek:
Well, I guess it's always been something that I've had in the back of my mind. I had, you know, 20 plus years of ultra marathon racing, anything from just beyond the marathon at 50 kilometers, which is 31 miles up to a hundred miles less. And I'd been doing that for so many years. And I had friends of mine say, you know, wait, wait to do the really big, like the multi days where you're out pushing ultra marathons day after day for weeks and weeks, even a month or more. And I still had this fascination of doing the long trail, one of our national scenic trails. I spent a lot of time on the Pacific crest trail. I had buddies at records on the Appalachian trail and the Pacific crest trail. And because I was a big fan of lightweight, backpacking and backpacking in general, it just was something that always fascinated me.
Scott Jurek:
So in terms of like the next level, I saved it towards the end of my career and that the big push or the big enticing piece was the idea of covering a vast amount of the country that I've lived in and traveled and raced in. But hadn't spent a lot of time and that's, that's one thing that the Appalachian trail was going to provide. I hadn't spent hardly any time in the Appalachian mountains. I had done a couple of ultras, one in Vermont, a couple in Virginia. And it was, um, yeah, it was something completely new, the push me and my wife and I needed that adventure just personally and for the things that were going on in our life. And it seemed like something we should do and we needed to get out in the woods. We went for it.
Ivy Joeva:
Well, wow. So tell us a little bit about what you gained from that journey.
Scott Jurek:
Yeah. It's hard to put into words what I experienced and what I gained from that journey. It's one of those things that, you know, I wrote a book about it and Jenny and I both went through this whole writing process, which is very cathartic. And just thinking about, you know, what, what did I learn? And you think after five years, I would be able to tell you this very succinct answer. And I think one of the biggest things that surprised me, or one of the biggest things that I've learned is when I've gone to those really difficult, hard, deep, dark places, such as doing something like the Appalachian trail, where every day there's these extreme highs and extreme lows. And it seems like it's just not going to happen, not going to get through it. I find a way through to the other side. And I think that's, that's, what's probably one of the biggest things I have.
Scott Jurek:
I've always felt like, okay, this is going to be one of my biggest tests. This is going to be the biggest challenge, you know, will I have something more left to give? And that's, that's one thing that this adventure and this athletic feat was a test of like going to the edge. And just when I think I thought I got to the ultimate edge, there was another challenge out on the trail, or there was another day that was even harder than the previous. And just when I thought I had gone to my personal edge, physically, mentally, spiritually, there was still something else out there. And there was still another realm to explore. And that's the thing that I guess fascinates me with the sport of ultra running and, and the sport of something like through hiking and speed records on long trails, like the Appalachian trail.
Scott Jurek:
And it's just tests, um, the body mind and soul in ways that are hard to replicate. And I think that's, that's what being human is, is really testing to appearance. We, as humans are endurance beings and enduring is something that we have to do on a daily basis, whether we're out struggling on the Appalachian trail or we're getting through the challenges mentally, physically on a day to day basis. And that's no more apparent than in the world we live in right now, which is, seemed like it's turned upside down and things are very difficult and challenging. And there's just always something new around the corner. It really
Ivy Joeva:
Is such an interesting time in history because you're right on the one hand stress seems like it's potentially at an all time high, just in terms of the bombardment of media we have and social stress and the constant kind of go, go, go mentally of technology. But at the same time, we live such comfortable lives in a certain sense in the sense that most of us have running water. We put our clothes in a machine to wash them, put our dishes in a machine to wash them, you know, get in our cars to go places. So you've talked about this benefit of that you've experienced with being uncomfortable. And you've talked about how you feel like that, like connects us with our roots as humans. Um, so to, to someone who that may sound crazy, help us, help us understand, like how, how is this a benefit to be uncomfortable?
Scott Jurek:
Well, it's very true. I like you said, we, especially in, I'm not saying, you know, right now people are definitely, and you know, myself included, you know, work is definitely turned sideways. The stuff I do for a living I'm not able to do. And that there are those extreme challenges for sure right now. And, but in general, when I look at, when we look at history and what humans have accomplished, and if we, you know, just read any biography or autobiography of somebody who has it more difficult than ourselves, you start to realize like, wow, you know, the, the ability to get out of comfort, uncomfortable situations or the ability to survive and do her is something that's innate in humans. And yes, I feel like we have to almost nowadays create challenges that push us because life has become very comfortable. We get to control the temperature of our homes with a touch of a button or turn of a dial.
Scott Jurek:
Um, we can become, you know, we can be in a place in a matter of minutes, we can be across the country in hours and all these things that we sometimes take for granted used to take a lot of physical, mental challenge. And I think that's, that's the biggest, I guess, reason for doing something like this too, is that I, I think being uncomfortable, challenging ourselves, this idea of electives buffering or chosen a challenge is something that I talk about with all my buddies, whether they're climbers or they're mountaineers, they're runners, um, you name it, just athletes or even artists for that matter. Um, people who challenge themselves mentally, um, certain jobs and professions that are very physically and mentally demanding on a day to day basis where life and death matter. Um, these are all examples of the human psyche desiring these things, even though like at the time, sometimes I question myself, like, why am I doing this?
Scott Jurek:
And a lot of people out there, you know, whether they're just getting off the couch and, you know, going for that walk that they didn't think they could do or say they challenge themselves to eat better or focus on an aspect of their lifestyle and move in a healthier direction. It's hard work and it's not easy. And there's a lot of times where we questioned like, Oh, I can just be comfortable at home on the couch. Why do I need to do this? And there is a benefit. And after all the struggle, we can look back at it and realize like, those were amazing times. I mean, I look back at some of the hardest and most difficult days on the, at T when Jenny and I were both struggling mentally. And just at the end of what we did was just frayed on all edges.
Scott Jurek:
I feel like those were amazing times too. I look back at them fondly, even though at the moment, it was like, why am I doing this? This is stupid. I'm done that. You'd think after 20 years of doing this stuff, I'd be, you know, well aware that I don't need to have those thoughts in my head, but we're only human. And I think that's, that's very natural. So for everyone out there listening who hasn't done ultra marathons, it can be, everybody has their own level of challenge and their own level of being uncomfortable. And it's just a matter of getting out there and pushing those envelopes. And as you get to your own edge, what you think is possible, there's always something that lies out there further.
Ivy Joeva:
Are you saying, it's kind of like, as you push your edges intentionally you build this reserve of strength that makes life just enhances life overall.
Scott Jurek:
Definitely. And I think it prepares me for life's challenges. I, and likewise life challenges have prepared me for doing these athletic feats of running ultra marathons day after day after day, like on the Appalachian trail or running a hundred mile race or running around a one mile loop for 24 hours for 165 miles. These things are all, these are all like, you know, I chose to do those things, but then the life experiences that I gained. And I think a lot of people who would talk about say a very challenging time in their life, it made them, you know, whether it made them stronger, whether it opened their mind to possibilities. Um, despite all the say, you know, suffering and discomfort and struggle that went on. We as humans, I think come out the other side better, um, and more equipped to handle life and the challenges that it presents, not just say on the field or out in the mountains and challenging ourselves athletically, but those everyday struggles and the challenges of, you know, whether it's a chronic disease or whether it's the loss of family or, you know, just a lot of things can come up.
Scott Jurek:
We can prepare for those things, but we can challenge our mind and our body and our soul, uh, in other ways. And I think that's where ultra endurance events, um, that's, that's what they've been for me. And everyone has their own vehicle for that exploration and challenge. Uh, for me, I, I happen to love running long distances, and it's a simple app. It's a simple, uh, for food, you don't need a lot, um, you know, a pair of running shoes and you can just head out the door and some people don't even use running shoes. So it's just a matter of again, finding those things that give you that personal challenge.
Ivy Joeva:
So obviously I get why you need to train your way into ultra running, but why a slow transition into veganism?
Scott Jurek:
Well, for me, I wanted to, it was a big shift for me. I grew up as a hunting and fishing boy in Northern Minnesota. I grew up on a meat and potatoes type of diet. My mother was always cooking. Um, meat was the center of the plate. We would have a vegetable, um, and then maybe some potatoes, but definitely meat was the center. So for me, it really, I wanted to make sure I was learning along the way. And I gave myself that leeway to slowly transition instead of just going a hundred percent vegan. Um, initially I'm just trying, trying to understand this new diet and it was a big shift for me and it took a year and a half. And I think for a lot of people, some people can just go like all in and a hundred percent, they're there one day, you know, full fledged, vegetarian or vegan.
Scott Jurek:
But for me, I gradually weaned off of the red meat, went to the chicken and fish and then eventually just doing fish and some dairy. Um, and then of course, when I went, when I decided to go fully vegan, it was a big transition cause I still had cheese and some of these dairy products and my diet and it definitely, for me was such a big shift. I was also as an athlete and somebody who is trying to perform, I was definitely a bit worried. And I think for a lot of people in that, I was, it was 1999 when I went fully vegan. So it was the late nineties when I was trying this. It was really just a matter of me, I guess, trusting myself. And also there's, there weren't a lot of people out there. I mean, you heard of these big superstars, whether it was Carl Lewis who had been vegetarian.
Scott Jurek:
I heard of Martino non-tribal Lova. There were some of these stories out there, but when it was like day to day, people that I knew in my running groups or in the sport specifically, there weren't many people that were even vegetarian. So going fully vegan was, was such a big leap and not having too many role models, so to speak. I had to trust that this was working and yeah, just wanted to give myself, I didn't want to want that pressure. And I mean, to be honest, I mentioned this in eat run. I literally was, you know, a week out from the biggest race of my life. My first Western States, 100 mile race in 1999. And I had just gone vegan in January and it was June and six months later, I'm still doubting the diet. And I thought at one point know, should I get a slab of salmon or should I go and get a slab of meat just to make sure I was going to have what I needed for that race. So it was a big leap for me. And I think that's, um, a Testament of how much, uh, stereotypes and just these myths that have evolved over time and just been ingrained in people that you can deed meat, you need animal products to perform or to maintain optimal health. And we know that's not the case and there's, there's more and more examples. There's more research now, you know, it may not be the only great diet out there, but it's definitely, um, for me been a, been a great path.
Ivy Joeva:
What would your advice be to someone who is, I mean, I think your whole philosophy about pushing us to our outside our comfort zones kind of begs the question is vegetarianism just another one of those things for you. Like it. Cause I think a lot of people think of vegetarianism that way as something that's like, Oh, why would I do that to myself when I could eat a nice,
Scott Jurek:
Oh, definitely. I mean, it's definitely a challenge for me. It was something, again, I was doubting even after a year and a half of trying to go vegetarian and then to vegan. And so I think for a lot of people, it is, it is something that pushed me out of my comfort zone. I like to say, you know, I was, I was doing two extreme things. I mean, I was a, I don't know, like I was doubly crazy in some people's eyes, probably because here I am, you know, running these long ultra marathons and I'm also a vegan. So I had two strikes against me on the, just the chart of a little bit, a little bit Loco or a little bit more wacko. Um, but I think that's the benefit there is, you know, following a plant based diet has really helped focus my attention on my diet and performance and how diet plays a role in that.
Scott Jurek:
And not just, you know, Oh, if I eat this, I will, all of a sudden become stronger or faster. It's not like that. And I think for me, it was a real focus decision on longterm health. And so what I would say to other people is that it is a big jump and it is a big leap. And any time we shift, um, a major lifestyle piece, whether it's diet or exercise or, you know, decreasing stress or, you know, tr minimizing psychological struggle, or those are all elements that are definitely a big shakeup. So I think the biggest thing is knowing like what the benefits are. And for me, I shifted to a plant based diet because I was looking for that longterm health picture. I was working in hospitals, seeing what my patients were eating as a physical therapy student. And later as a physical therapist, thinking to myself, I've got to look at this differently.
Scott Jurek:
And just seeing like the lack of focus on nutrition and with having my mother, somebody who struggled with multiple sclerosis for over 30 years and seeing that a young age, a chronic disease really has taken its toll on a family and an individual like my mother, who was in the prime of her life, it really made me want to search. And so I started reading books about healing and optimal health. And dr. Andrew Weil was one of my, like these inspirational figures and somebody who had just loved reading his books. And so I think for people out there it's, it helps to have that support and having these inspirational figure. Sometimes it's a friend or a family member who has been following a certain lifestyle or, um, you know, a certain pattern that you want to take on. These are all benefits or it's that book, or it's that article we read that really helps, you know, give us a little bit more confidence because it is a big leap for a lot of people to shift something like that.
Scott Jurek:
And especially for athletes like myself, like shifting my diet and not expecting huge performance gains, but later there were. And I think that's the beauty of it is I was looking at a longterm health reason and became this thing for me. It was a longevity in my career. I wanted to be running later in my life. And I started realizing all the benefits that a plant based diet can, can, can bring such as decreased recovery times and being able to rebound from workouts and the consistency of those workouts and recovery is really critical for what I do
Ivy Joeva:
Well, you are certainly that inspiration and role model for anyone aspiring to a plant based diet. I guess I'm curious in terms of recovery, because you've, you've been vegetarian for many years now, how do you make that comparison to the way things were before?
Scott Jurek:
And it was definitely unexpected for me. So I saw those very much on a day to day basis where I felt like I had more energy. I had noticed decreased recovery times between workouts. And again, you know, maybe it wasn't just a hundred percent the plant based diet, um, maybe because I was eating more fruits and vegetables, and this is the other thing that I think, and I'll be very Frank because I know some people will try to pick apart. Uh, there's been some recent, uh, I guess, conflict right now with the, with the film that I'm in the documentary. Game-changers a lot of people will say, Oh, you know, diet is and everything. And for sure you have to train, you have to do a number of things, but if your diet doesn't support the training, and if you're not maintaining one of the pieces of health, which is diet, um, you can get away with it for a while.
Scott Jurek:
But for me, I noticed right away. And then I noticed, you know, when I look back like 10 years later into my competitive years, a lot of people have their five to six years of peak performance and mine just kept being extended. And I think that's, that's the beauty is that it's not so much, like you noticed the day to day effects of the recovery times, getting less, the body feeling more stronger, um, better adaptable to the stresses placed on it. But again, it's more of like that longterm shift. And that's, that's the big thing too, is that eating because the diet focuses, it focused me to get more fruits and vegetables, whole grains, legumes, all of the things that, whether you eat plants only, or you eat an omnivorous diet, we know we should be eating more plants and more plant food. And if somebody is doing that say on an omnivorous diet, they probably could get some of those similar effects, but if they're eating heavily processed meat and some of the things that we know can cause cancer can cause disease, it's not great for an athlete or anyone expecting performance.
Scott Jurek:
So it really comes down to like quality of diet. Again, you can still, you can still be vegan or plant based and have a terrible diet. You can drink soda, you can eat tons of sugar, um, unhealthy oils, hydrogenated oils. So that's not necessarily a healthy plant based diet, but if you're focused on whole foods, whole plant foods, you're going to see the return on performance as well as just longterm health. So I think that's a key thing to get across. And again, I'm not saying I'm a plant based diet, isn't superior. I think it's an incredible diet for longterm health and performance. But I think sometimes we'll pick it apart and say, Oh, well, you know, you could eat small amounts of meat and still get the same effects if you ate a lot of plant food. And that's one thing we know for sure is that, you know, across the board, no one will argue, you need to eat more plant food to be healthy and to avoid disease and maintain performance.
Ivy Joeva:
It also depends on what plant food, right? Because like, I, I'm curious to get into the nitty gritty of like, how do you fuel yourself for these incredible athletic events? Um, you know, I think the question on everybody's mind is protein. How do you get enough protein? And you've said that we actually shouldn't be so concerned about protein as vegetarians. It's more about getting enough fat. So kind of walk us through how you handle those energy demand.
Scott Jurek:
Yeah. And so, um, I will say this, uh, in terms of the, the fat, um, statement that I made for me as an ultra endurance athlete, I need to get enough calories throughout the day, much like, you know, somebody who's involved in bodybuilding or building a lot of lean muscle mass, uh, in those sports as well, calories are everything. So you want to maintain your caloric level. And when you're eating like myself, anywhere from four to 6,000 calories a day at the peak of my training, it's, it's one of those things where as long as I'm not just eating straight junk food, I'm getting enough protein. If I'm eating enough legumes, if I'm eating enough whole grains, if I'm eating enough, uh, you know, nuts and seeds and other things I'm eating a wide range. Um, really there shouldn't be worried that I would be getting enough amino acids and protein.
Scott Jurek:
And again, that's because I'm eating a high amount of calories. Now, if you're somebody who's just eating 2000 calories or less a day 1500 calories, you can run into a serious deficit. If you're just eating salads and avoiding whole grains and legumes, any type of soy products, such as tofu or Tempe, you could run into, you know, a major issue, but for athletes who are consuming higher amounts of calories. So let's say in the 3000 plus range, it would be very hard not to get enough protein again, unless you're just eating junk food and processed food that is high in sugars and fats. But for me, the biggest issue, if I wanted to increase the amount of calories per day, I would need to up my fat intake. So avocados getting enough healthy fats, olive oil, olives, nut butters. These were things that I've incorporated during my peak training.
Scott Jurek:
Now, today, when I haven't run for three or four hours, would I eat large amounts of fat? Probably not. Um, you want it for me? I want to get enough healthy fats through, especially monounsaturated fats, like olives or olive oil, things like essential fatty acids from flax seed and flax oil, those kinds of things. But again, it's limited based on the activity level. So I just want to make that clear too. So somebody shouldn't start eating tons of fat, um, because as we know, fat, every, every a gram of fat contains nine calories. So, you know, definitely whether it's, uh, a weight balancing issue, um, whether you're trying to maintain weight, increase weight, or decrease your body weight fat will definitely get you there quickest when it comes to upping, uh, caloric intake. And, and that's for me as an athlete, it was really key in to answer your question on protein.
Scott Jurek:
Plus, everyone wants to know that even though I feel like there's a lot of information nowadays, that we get plenty of protein throughout our diets. There's a lot of argument of like how much we should get, you know, the world health organization recommends that we get somewhere between seven to 8%. Uh, you'll see the U S guidelines, uh, being on the higher side of, you know, more in the, anywhere from 10 to 15%, sometimes 20%, whether you're following a high protein diet. So, and on up, but in general, if you're trying to hit numbers within a reasonable range, even at the 10, 12% of your daily intake, very easy to do with a plant based diet. And for me, I do that through whole grains, beans, legumes, soy products, like Tempe tofu. Occasionally I'll have some say tan, which is a wheat based condensed protein.
Scott Jurek:
But again, I do some condensed protein sources like Tempe tofu, but of course, a lot of beans and whole grains, sprouted grain breads are great too for upping the protein level. Things like edamame, which is a, a soybean that's a green, anybody who's had a sushi or been to a Japanese restaurant will probably have ed mommy for the first time. And these are great sources that again, quite dense in protein that you can get. And then as long as you're doing some nuts and seeds for me, I try to do that as well. And then when I'm training heavily, I'll incorporate some pea protein, Brown rice protein in my smoothies to, to bump things up a little bit more like protein powders. Yes. Protein powders. Yeah. So, um, P protein and Brown rice protein powders, uh, some hemp protein powders, uh, as well. So seeds and, um, and also things like Brown rice and legumes can be condensed and you can get powders. And again, I try to get most of my protein through whole food sources, but we'll use some pea and Brown rice protein powders, occasionally like, uh, a fermented soy protein powder, try to avoid the real heavy isolated soy protein powders
Ivy Joeva:
Is so controversial. And, you know, you see a lot written about, there's kind of a myth. That's become a whole cultural myth around. If you eat soy, it's going to turn you into a woman. That's kind of like the extreme version. So help us debunk that for once and for all about the soil. Do you have any concerns about growing breasts? Cause you're, you're a big fan of tofu and tempeh, right?
Scott Jurek:
Definitely. And I'm going to say this and there's plenty of research out there for people that want to find, you know, the research that supports it. Um, most of it has actually been in the other direction, especially for women in terms of improving estrogen levels and actually preventing things like breast cancer and some of the things that people worry about. But, um, from a male side of things, there's no research again, it's one of these myths, much like, you know, meat, like you have to have me to be strong. I mean, we've been fed that through advertisements. We've been, we've been told that from, you know, in the early days and Fiat and, uh, you know, physical education and health and all these things we had, at least for me in the seventies and eighties, we were always told like, Oh, you've got to have me and all that.
Scott Jurek:
The stuff that has come out, we know that it's just been mainly, you know, put out there because it's, it's been good for business. So when it comes to food, there's a lot of information. And I think soy is just one of those examples of people freaking out about, Oh, I'm gonna get too much estrogen in my body. And, and we know in, you know, moderate amounts and sensible amounts that there's really been no cases of people overdosing and causing their body to shift in an estrogen, um, heavy format. Um, in fact, like I said, if you look at the research, most of it has been positive in terms of preventing things, particularly breast cancer and women. So with soy, I think the biggest thing was soy is avoiding the really heavily processed soy products out there. And that goes to any product out mother, you know, it's a, another type of food.
Scott Jurek:
We know you want to stay close to the whole form. And Tempe and tofu are actually very much whole foods. They are processed soy. And the fact that they're cooked, they're blended they're fermented. And I think these are things you just have to look at the populations that did eat them, whether it's, you know, Japanese or, you know, the Chinese, uh, the Indonesia Indonesians. And when it comes to Tempe, these are foods that have been staples in their diets for hundreds, if not thousands of years. So, um, I really, you know, when people want to like use, you know, research, look at what people have been doing in real life for hundreds of years, these are things that again, should not be avoided. Um, should you just have piles of tofu on your plate? Probably not, but again, you're not trying to, you know, I've never seen somebody want to get 50, 60 grams of protein of temp, you know, Tenpay or tofu in a meal. Um, so, and again, there's been the research saying that that would be toxic or, or caused some kind of hormonal imbalance.
Ivy Joeva:
Do you include a concern about genetically modified soy in the processed category?
Scott Jurek:
So, yeah, definitely in that, I mean, I didn't want to open that can of worms, but when it comes to soy, soy is definitely, and you know, the funny thing is people who eat no meat and most meat, unless they're eating grass fed beef, we feed it to a lot of meat sources, chicken, cattle, um, pigs soy is fed in high quantities. So in reality, when you're eating these animals, you're getting a lot of soy. And usually those are like you mentioned, uh, genetically modified because they produce it in high quantities and high yield situations. And these are also things to avoid when it comes to heavily processed soy, whether it's soy isolates, but the genetically modified, um, issue is definitely a big issue with soy because it is one of the most genetically modified foods out there. Um, again, because we feed it in such large quantities to usually livestock and other animals.
Scott Jurek:
And then what has been happening in like the processed food realm when everybody was worried about, Oh, we got to get more protein. I'm a great way to do that is to, you know, grind it up, um, isolate it and put it into, you know, chips and crackers and everything, uh, processed. I mean, there used to be soy in everything now it's gotten better. And the other issue too is like soy oil. Soy is also a great, can be a healthy fat source. Um, but when you again, extract it and condense it, it becomes, um, soil. And most of the time it's hydrogenated because it's a very stable fat, and it's one that was very cheap again, because it's probably LinkedIn connected to how it's manufactured in quantities for other uses, particularly feeding other animals and other food sources. So yeah, it's a sticky issue and not to get into food politics, but I think it's a prime example of one of these things that, you know, you may want to avoid when it's heavily processed or when it's genetically modified or when it's been fed to, to animals.
Scott Jurek:
So we're, yeah, it's one of the, I guess, hot, hot issues. And it's interesting. I got twisted more on the fact that soy is bad in all forms because again, it's not, I mean, Misa is amazing soy source and it's not high protein, but again, it comes from soybeans. It's been fermented and it's been shown to reduce so many diseases and been such a great benefit to, to human health. And if you look at the Japanese and the quantities of miso soup that they eat throughout their lifetime, it's, it's a phenomenal food source. So I'm always fascinated. There's a, there's a great book out there, blues the blues zones, which has been out for years, but finally got around to it, read it, reading it during quarantine here. And, um, I find it fascinating to look at, you know, where are people living the longest? What are they eating? And for those that want to look at that, I think that's a much better benchmark sometimes than just isolating a nutritional research. And what do people have been eating over time and how do they, how does it promote health and longevity?
Ivy Joeva:
Such a great point. That's such a great point about how soy GMO soy in particular is fed to livestock. And that's something that people often leave out of these, this commentary on soy and this villainizing of soy is like, well, if you're eating animal foods, you're getting many times that amount because it's concentrated in animals.
Scott Jurek:
No, the fact is, is, you know, you typically are a proponent of whatever you eat and if an animal eats a lot of certain ingredients or certain food sources, um, there's gotta be something left over in that, that animal flesh and what is in it. So, and I think that's, that's where, you know, science, it's really hard again to pick that apart, but it's, yeah, it's interesting.
Ivy Joeva:
It's also the health of the animal, right? Cause no animal was designed to eat soy. So you're giving that animal soy, you know, that's the cow's digestive system might not be optimized.
Scott Jurek:
Definitely. Yeah. And it's, it's a fascinating issue of like what we feed. And again, then people will say, well, I grew up hunting and fishing and wild game, Shirley. The problem with wild game is a lot of people don't want to eat wild game because of the way it tastes and you can get it to taste better for sure, by, you know, marinating and going through a very specific process. And it takes a while, but in general, um, you know, people have gotten used to what certain meat sources taste like. And I think that's where, you know, you see these meat analogs come into play of getting people like at those tastes and textures that they want from meat, but getting them from plant sources. I think it's a great trend. Is it the best for health? Probably not because it's heavily processed, but it does give people the, I guess, joy and satisfaction of eating some of the things or they're used to, because again, a lot of this is social, it's psychological too, with food.
Ivy Joeva:
What advice would you have for parents whose children? Because a lot of times this impulse comes from the kids and parents are like, Oh my God, what do I feed my child? How do I make sure that they're getting all their nutrition? Is there anything, I mean, you've really debunked the protein myth, but is there anything like vitamin B12 or calcium or anything that you would be particularly concerned about to ensure you're getting all the nutrients you need as a new vegetarian? Definitely as a new
Scott Jurek:
Vegetarian, and this goes for kids or for new vegetarian vegans and vegetarians, you know, if you're eating, whether it's eggs or if you're eating, uh, dairy sources, you will be getting some B12, but if you're fully vegan, uh, one of the big things, one of the only things that you should be worried about supplementing would be be 12. And some individuals even go as far as like, well, if you can get that from say the biome of soil, that's maybe leftover on a carrot. And if you're pulling out your under your own carrots and your vegetables from the earth, and you're getting some of that B12 from the earth again, rather than try to think that you're getting enough, that the biggest issue is supplementing with B12 and the same goes with children. Um, we do give our children a, a multivitamin, a vegan multivitamin that has in the biggest issue, there is B12 and it has a few other antioxidants and B vitamins, but the biggest issue that I'm worried about or concerned about as a parent and somebody who's vegan would be getting enough B12.
Scott Jurek:
So on a daily basis, you should be doing that as a supplement. And, you know, that goes back to the argument of how humans used to eat. I remember my grandmother and I still love pulling carrots out of the ground. And, um, you could get B12 from other sources and you definitely, if you're eating fortified foods, kids, of course, you know, love cereal or love. Um, other things maybe you're, you're getting an oat milk or a soy milk, and that's been four to five. So if you're eating some processed foods, chances are, you would be getting a little bit of B12 assuming that they're supplemented or they're enriched with, uh, with B12. But in general, I think the safest bet is to supplement that now, when it comes to iron or calcium, any of those other micronutrients, again, it would be come down to like a personal case by case issue.
Scott Jurek:
You know, some women notice that their iron levels dropped down, whether they're on a vegan or a omnivorous diet, and that could be an issue, um, calcium and zinc. Most of the time, again, if you're eating a wide range of foods, you're probably fine. So those that are worried, I think a multivitamin is probably one of the better steps for insurance of getting enough, but the biggest issue is not eating too much processed food, junk food, high sugar, high, heavily processed fats, and things like that, where you're devoting yourself of calcium and iron through green leafy vegetables, or antioxidants, vitamin C and calcium and all these things that we know could be issues. But the biggest there is, you know, eating more fruits and vegetables in their original whole state.
Speaker 4:
Yes, that's so important, which isn't easy with kids.
Scott Jurek:
So I think with kids, um, you know, you have to get creative and, um, again, getting them used to that and making it a part and making it fun, I think is the biggest issue. And sometimes you have to hide them. Now there's some great recipes for, you know, incorporating sweet potatoes and carrots into Mac and cheese ways to, to hide broccoli and sauces and things like that. So if your kid is a real picky eater, um, that's, you know, where you might want to go, but I think ethnic foods too are great. Stews are our kids love doll and Thai food and Indian food. And I think making it fun and building it around, like learning something about other cultures can be fun too. But if you just give kids, like I could just love tofu, but some kids are just like, they want more flavor and taste and that's where you can get creative with marinating it and baking it and giving it a different texture.
Ivy Joeva:
I mean, I was actually raised as a vegetarian child myself back in the eighties when it was not in Vogue. So it's, it's so nice to hear, you know, that kids are able to have some fun with it
Scott Jurek:
And it's a lot easier for sure now there's, there's a lot of great and there's a lot of great substitutes out there from things like cheese. Like again, you can actually get some pretty healthy dairy substitutes, meat substitutes that are at least better on the scale of, of health. Um, but that give people, you know, when they want to have cheese pizza, they want to have that, that same texture versus trying to replicate it with like a tofu, you know, crumbled type cheese or things like that. So, and again, it doesn't have to get expensive, you can avoid those processed or more expensive food products, um, and just eat, you know, beans and legumes and simpler foods. Well, that is
Ivy Joeva:
Much brilliant advice for all ages to ease in, to make it fun. And, um, you know, to really just enjoy the process of this helpful transition. So thank you so much for bringing all your wisdom and wealth of experience to us on future food today.
Scott Jurek:
Well, thank you. And yeah, I'd recommend everyone have fun with it, and I'm a big proponent if you're headed in the plant based direction or even just trying to incorporate more fruits and vegetables. I mean, for me, I think getting people to eat more towards that plant plant based direction is better than saying, okay, I've got to go a hundred percent. So some people pick the day of the week, whether it's, you know, meatless Monday or do it as a challenge. And right now with, uh, you know, people coming out of quarantine, um, we've had all these challenges going on, but, um, diet is a, is a fun one to create some of these challenges, get the family involved, to get your friends involved. And, uh, ideally you're, you're improving your health too, as you're doing those challenges. So have fun with it. And it doesn't have to be this diet of deprivation and again, really boring or anything like that.
Scott Jurek:
It's, it's a lot of fun. That's what I've enjoyed too, is the cooking element, all the different, exploring all the different foods, the recipes, those that are curious, my first book and run has 20 recipes in it. Tuesday, you can try some new foods. It was, the idea was to get people trying things that they might not. So when you notice, like what's this miso or what's this weird thing that I've never heard of before? Um, my, my plan was to get people trying different foods and expanding their horizons a bit, which I think is the fun part.
Ivy Joeva:
So cool and so needed, especially during this
Scott Jurek:
Definitely have fun with it. Well, thank you for having me.
Ivy Joeva:
So good to have you Scott. Thanks again.
Ivy Joeva:
Thanks for listening. Everyone. Visit us online at futurefood.fm. Subscribe on Apple podcasts, or listen to us wherever you get your podcasts and put the power to save the planet on your plates and on your playlist. I'm Ivy Joeva. Future of Food is produced by Lee Schneider . Music by epidemic sound. We're part of the FutureX podcast network.